10w-30 used as tranny fluid?

MyNeonSaysHi · Post by **MyNeonSaysHi** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:10 pm

Check this out:
Mopar Manual Transmission Fluid 95-05 Neon, 03-05 SRT-4 - 03-05 Dodge SRT4 Drivetrain Parts, Clutches, Axles, Short Throw Shifters, Booger
Bottom paragraph states:

Please note: This is the fluid recommended by Mopar for the vehicles above. If you drive your car very hard, a Chrysler Engineer that we work with quite a bit has recommended the use of Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w/30 with ZDDP or Zinc dithiophosphate which helps protect the gear surfaces better under high heat conditions. You can find the ZDDP labeling on the back of the container.

(SL labeling)
https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Mo ... 0W-30.aspx
The reason they used ATF + friction modifier from teh factory is because it was easy and cheap since the SRT-4's were going down the assembly line with the reg. Neons...

Maddog wrote:He knows Neons (helped design them), and has been racing them since Day One.

*Referring to the guy that recommended the high mileage engine oil for our trannies*

Maddog wrote:Drained out ATF.
Fill with one qt of flush, 1 qt of Mobil1 (drove 10-15 miles).
Refill with fresh Mobil1.
Changed again w/fresh Mobil1 after a couple hundred miles.
Gonna change every spring regardless of how many miles. Cheap insurance, imo.

I am really thinking about switching over... Anyone else made the switch to the 10w-30 High Mileage?
Or any input on the subject matter?

Just wanted to get more opinions.

Post by **racer12306** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:12 pm

I remember on the org I was tarred and feathered for even thinking such a thing a few years back.

Post by **racer12306** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:18 pm

Is there a big difference between the 850 and 350 to where this recommendation wouldn't apply to non-SRTs as well?

MyNeonSaysHi · Post by **MyNeonSaysHi** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:23 pm

I sent a PM to Maddog asking that same question...Since he owns multiple Neons.

IMO, I think if the car isn't driven hard the ATF+4 should be fine..

Passt · Post by **Passt** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:50 pm

Hmmm, this is interesting. Let me know if you do this and how it works out. I'd be willing to try it out based on the evidence you posted.

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:32 pm

All the NVG transaxles we are talking about use composite synchros. Chrysler built transaxles from the 80s as well as the greteg buit ones(A-555 and A-568) used metal synchros they last just fine using engine oil.

The only reason Ive been given for the speciality trans fluid in 1gns was the synchros dont live real long when exposed to anything else.

The reason for the switch to ATF+4 was Mr.assemblylineguy couldnt pick up a different nozzle every 9th car for his $27.50/hr

If changed every 18-20k with or without the friction modifier(its there only to quiet the LSD) ATF+4 works fine. The engineers agree for the most part that Synchromesh or 75w-90 gear oil is best

Post by **occasional demons** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:39 pm

The first quote was also quoted from Drakito

ZeroChad wrote:Check it out here: link

MyNeonSaysHi · Post by **MyNeonSaysHi** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:00 am

occasional demons wrote:The first quote was also quoted from Drakito

ZeroChad wrote:Check it out here: link

Nice find!!!

Looks like I will be swappin over.

Got a PM back from Maddog, he uses it in his SRT, his ACR and his sons R/T. No issues what so ever.

SRT Rally team ^^^
Looks like they are using Mobil Clean 5000 High Mileage Engine Oil. Not the Mobil synthetic.
I'm not seeing the ZDDP in the MSDS for the Mobil 1 High Mileage, but it's there in both the Mobil Clean High Mileage and Mobil Clean 5000.

darthroush · Post by **darthroush** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:45 am

Mobil1 High Mileage (not the "Clean 5000") 10W30 has a phosphorus level of 900ppm and a zinc level of 1,000ppm.

Donkeypuncher · Post by **Donkeypuncher** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:39 am

occasional demons wrote:The first quote was also quoted from Drakito

ZeroChad wrote:Check it out here: link

Damn, I didn't realize the 2nd gen trans is that much better than 1st gen, I thought it just had a stronger housing.

Maddog · Post by **Maddog** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:39 am

Friction modifier is made with an organic mixture, which, when mixed with ATF+4, produces an acidic compound that attacks the fibroid synchros in the T850 trans (SRT4).
The high milage synthetic and non-synthetic engine oil is far better in the trans regardless of how often you change ATF+4. I've seen what happens to the synchros on an SRT4 trans that used ATF+4 for 50k+ miles - looks like something was gnawing on the synchros. #2, 3, and 4 synchros were nearly gone, and had metal to metal conditions (grind).

The reason for the switch to ATF+4 was Mr. Assemblylineguy couldnt pick up a different nozzle every 9th car for his $27.50/hr

The above statement, as well as overall cost, is pretty much the main reasons why DCx used ATF+4.

MyNeonSaysHi · Post by **MyNeonSaysHi** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:40 am

darthroush wrote:Mobil1 High Mileage (not the "Clean 5000") 10W30 has a phosphorus level of 900ppm and a zinc level of 1,000ppm.

you see the picture of the SRT Rally guy pouring the fluid. That wasn't the Mobil 1 High Mileage, it had a red cap. It was the Clean 5000.

So what fluid do we need to use for clarification? I don't want to get the wrong stuff.

Thanks for the comment Maddog.

Post by **occasional demons** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:57 am

Of course who knows what was actually in the bottle...

MyNeonSaysHi · Post by **MyNeonSaysHi** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:22 pm

Thats true. I highly doubt they had something else in the bottle.

I see a can of doctor pepper right on the front frame too... Who knows what is in there...

darthroush · Post by **darthroush** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:18 pm

MyNeonSaysHi wrote:
darthroush wrote:Mobil1 High Mileage (not the "Clean 5000") 10W30 has a phosphorus level of 900ppm and a zinc level of 1,000ppm.
you see the picture of the SRT Rally guy pouring the fluid. That wasn't the Mobil 1 High Mileage, it had a red cap. It was the Clean 5000.

This is what I was replying to:

I'm not seeing the ZDDP in the MSDS for the Mobil 1 High Mileage

Besides, I couldn't tell you the difference between any Mobil1 product. Don't use them since they are crap, IMO. They used to be good, but have gone downhill these past few years.

MyNeonSaysHi · Post by **MyNeonSaysHi** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:24 pm

darthroush wrote:
MyNeonSaysHi wrote:
darthroush wrote:Mobil1 High Mileage (not the "Clean 5000") 10W30 has a phosphorus level of 900ppm and a zinc level of 1,000ppm.
you see the picture of the SRT Rally guy pouring the fluid. That wasn't the Mobil 1 High Mileage, it had a red cap. It was the Clean 5000.
This is what I was replying to:
I'm not seeing the ZDDP in the MSDS for the Mobil 1 High Mileage
Besides, I couldn't tell you the difference between any Mobil1 product. Don't use them since they are crap, IMO. They used to be good, but have gone downhill these past few years.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Where did you find the 900ppm and 1000ppm info? So the reg. High Mileage 10w-30 has the ZDDP, whatever the hell that stands for.

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:40 pm

So is there a good reason(beside cost) to use engine oil over the NVG specified oil?

ZeroChad · Post by **ZeroChad** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:24 pm

Thanks for the cross post quote lol. I'm going to be changing my trans fluid soon as well. I've been looking at trying Mobil 10w-30 as well. Is he talking about the synthetic or mineral?

OB · Post by OB » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:18 pm

I switched from ATF+4 to Redline MTL after about 10K miles. Switched back to ATF+4 around 15K miles due to notchy shifting. Not sure if it was the Redline, the STS I had at the time, or my driving, but somewhere along the line my synchros ALL started having issues. I'm now at 40K miles still running the ATF and it hasn't changed. Not really better or worse. I wonder if switching to motor oil will make it feel any better, or if the damage is already done. I'd be interesting in anything that could bring some smoothness back to the shifts. If the tranny is toast, I at least want to enjoy it in its last days.

Chuck recommended motor oil to me awhile back in a PM, and I have yet to have the time to try it out.

darthroush · Post by **darthroush** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:35 pm

MyNeonSaysHi wrote:
darthroush wrote:
MyNeonSaysHi wrote: you see the picture of the SRT Rally guy pouring the fluid. That wasn't the Mobil 1 High Mileage, it had a red cap. It was the Clean 5000.
This is what I was replying to:
I'm not seeing the ZDDP in the MSDS for the Mobil 1 High Mileage
Besides, I couldn't tell you the difference between any Mobil1 product. Don't use them since they are crap, IMO. They used to be good, but have gone downhill these past few years.
You are entitled to your opinion.

Where did you find the 900ppm and 1000ppm info? So the reg. High Mileage 10w-30 has the ZDDP, whatever the hell that stands for.

It's not solely my opinion (I am basing that off of what I have seen; there are many better oils for cheaper), but anyways, not going into all of that. The information is out there to be found, just like the info about the ppm levels. I got those from the Mobil1 website.

ZDDP is made up of phosphorus and zinc. ZDDP's full name is Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate. Here's a thread I started over on BITOG about calculating ZDDP levels: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... er=1472028

MyNeonSaysHi · Post by **MyNeonSaysHi** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:57 pm

Easy version:
API Motor Oil Service Classifications

Or direct from API here with Engineer speak, this is the entire OIl classidfication requirements by the API.:
http://www.api.org/certifications/engin ... rint-2.pdf
SL oils Page 59-60 under sequence VE, compare to page 60-61, ZDDP level is set between .06-.08% on SM, SL must have at least .08%.
So, All SL oils are required to have ZDDP, by federaly mandated API and SAE certification.

As you can see it has the SL rating.

A ton of guys are running it with no problems. I run 0w-40 Mobil 1 (Euro formula) Car has been running great since I got it 40k ago.

What would you recommend for the tranny that is equivalent to the Mobil 1 Darth?

Midnight_Rider · Post by **Midnight_Rider** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:05 am

Eh, I just have the tranny fluid in my cars changed every year- never had any problems. I do find this thread interesting though.

darthroush · Post by **darthroush** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:58 am

MyNeonSaysHi wrote:Easy version:
API Motor Oil Service Classifications

Or direct from API here with Engineer speak, this is the entire OIl classidfication requirements by the API.:
http://www.api.org/certifications/engin ... rint-2.pdf
SL oils Page 59-60 under sequence VE, compare to page 60-61, ZDDP level is set between .06-.08% on SM, SL must have at least .08%.
So, All SL oils are required to have ZDDP, by federaly mandated API and SAE certification.

As you can see it has the SL rating.

A ton of guys are running it with no problems. I run 0w-40 Mobil 1 (Euro formula) Car has been running great since I got it 40k ago.

What would you recommend for the tranny that is equivalent to the Mobil 1 Darth?

I'm well aware of API ratings and certifications, though I'm not sure what you are looking for there? All oils have "ZDDP," though the newer SM certification requires them to have less than SL because the ZDDP that goes through the cats in the form of oil blow by supposedly dramatically reduces the life of a catalytic converter. So, in the infinite wisdom of the stupid people in the world to stop/prevent certain things from happening, the limits have dropped. For example, Royal Purple last I saw, still had an SL rated oil. Therefore, it had (and would still have) a higher ZDDP content than SM oils. Most, if not all, SL oils will have higher ZDDP content due to the new regulations. Racing oils will have even higher amounts on top of that.

I'm not saying Mobil1 will cause problems. It's just in the testing these past few years, it has literally scraped by enough to be called a GrpIII oil. I wouldn't have a problem using it myself if it didn't cost so much and actually performed better than oils that cost less because they don't have ExxonMobil stamped on the label. Hell, I picked almost picked up two jugs of the Clean 5000 (or High Mileage, can't remember exactly) stuff when it was on sale. However, even on sale, it was more expensive than a great performing synthetic oil. Hard to make the decision at that point? GrpII, maybe even a GrpII+ oil, vs. a GrpIII oil? No.

As for the fluid, I run ATF+4. The rally team may run it, but they are also going to be changing it fairly often, after every race I'd have to guess. You are talking about replacing a long lasting semi-syn transmission fluid though with a conventional motor oil designed for use in an engine for 5,000 miles...in a transmission. Your original posts states the Mobil1 10W30 High Mileage should be used, too, so you are not even running a synthetic oil or blend for that matter anyways. I mean, Valvoline VR1 Street Formula has a ZDDP level of 1,200ppm compared to 1,000ppm in the Mobil1. So, following the logic being employed unless I am missing something, that would be a better oil to use right there. I just personally wouldn't substitute oils like this for extended use in a car that is driven around daily. Whether I am right or wrong, that is my take on the whole thing. I mean, if motor oil works better in a transmission and has been proven so, why have transmission fluid at all? The R&D guys building the transmissions and fluids have got to have a better grasp on this stuff than we do...

Also to add, I'm not looking for a debate over Mobil1, especially since I don't care for them. Everyone that uses Mobil1 will be just fine. I just prefer the better oils that cost less.

My $0.02.

MyNeonSaysHi · Post by **MyNeonSaysHi** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:30 pm

I would, and have said on other posts, that any oil with at least the correct amount of ZDDP and made from a quality base stock is goung to work well as long as it is SL rated, Not SM. Darth has the reason for change from Sl to SM dead to nuts and the ZDDP levels match what I was told.
High mileage was suggested as the cheapest oil that has everything you need. Remember, a Chrysler Engineer(who likes not to have his name thrown around) who worked in the oil, R&D, and failure departments had it tested to be within 99% of the original mopar oils. Only drop in formulation is in sulphur, which is only needed on the brass synchros of early 1st gens, 95-96.5 as an antitarnish agent. It has a Slight rise in ZDDP, around .01%. ZDDP is added to create a shear resistant coating on bearings, gears and other high wear, high shear parts like cam lobes and transmission gears.
He has run it exclusively in all 20 of his race and road cars for motor and trans and when in charge of the Neon Racing effort from Mopar, suggested it exclusively. He also was the only one to make a stratus blocked SOHC headed neon cheater car for SCCA and Spec Neon racing.
I have run it in my transmissions for 25k and 15k miles respectively and close to 110k miles combined in my motors.
That is why I usually just recommend Mobil1 High Mileage 10w30 for its the most cost effective and has everything you need. However, Redline MTL, Amsoil, Royal Purple and other racing oils work well without any downfall except cost.
Basically any quality SL rated Oil with at least 1000ppm of ZDDP, synthetic base stock and a weight of 30 to 40 will work. Redline MTL is wieghted at 40, Amsoil's synchromax(IIRC) is 35, etc, etc.
NEVER EVER use any oil weighted higher than 40, it is too thick and will not get flung up on the passive oiling ramps to reach the shafts or synchros. Most gear oils for transmissions are in the 75-125 weight range.
Dave
Little Dragon Race Transmissions

darthroush · Post by **darthroush** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:20 pm

What's the reasoning for using an SL over and SM oil? I guess the Mobil1 HM still has just enough (1,000ppm) ZDDP in it though. So, the oil needs at minimum 1,000ppm of ZDDP and a synthetic base? Are we talking a syn-blend or full syn? I'm just trying to see the logic as to why you should switch for a non-racing vehicle? I guess if it is cheaper, why not, but...

At 25K miles in the transmission, has the oil been analyzed or even changed? I'd be worried about how long the ZDDP lasts if anything, more so than the brand, and under what conditions. The ZDDP can drop quickly in an engine being raced, so I'd have to guess it would do the same in a transmission. The out I'd possibly give it is that it isn't subject to the same conditions in a transmission vs. and engine providing they are better, not worse.

MyNeonSaysHi · Post by **MyNeonSaysHi** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:02 am

Excellent fluid royal Purple, Its what I use in my power steering. If it wasn't so expensive I would run it everywhere.

Anyway on to the rebuttal, I guess I should just join already, lol. Darth seems actualy quite intelligent, he just can't get over his hatred of Mobil1. He has quite good questions as well.

The minimum of ZDDP in 1000ppm is due to the fact the transmissions gears constantly sync and ride together. You have metal on metal wear with zero bearing or bushing surface. The gear sets in the 1st gen are 8620 steel and a little softer and easier to wear. The 2nd gen uses 9310 steel, much harder and more wear resistant, but it is also more brittle at higher shock loads, 500hp range, no issues for a stock or even highly modded setup. You have to think with multiple contact points of metal on metal forcing your car down the road you are going to need some shear resitant coatings for the gear faces.

A stock SOHC has 129 crank torque. Using a 3.94R/t trans with the 3.50 1st gear you have 1778.91 ftlbs of torque being applied to the gear faces of the output shaft and ring gear. The minimum 1000ppm ZDDP is to help combat the shock load and shear as the gear faces engage with power applied. The new SM's ZDDP amounts are just to little to help combat the shear that happens as the gears first get engaged, and mash the small amount of space left in machining into metal on metal as the load is applied.

The longevity I was told is not an issue; there are no heat sources except the friction caused by the gears movements, no hydrocarbons being introduced into the oil from combustion and cylinder leakdown and no wear except of minor surface and synchro face, which are taken car of by the stock magnet(or better still a magnetic drain plug). It is a sealed system with only 1 vent to keep the case pressure from rising, and that vent is tiny. I still suggest a yearly change out as the synchro faces wear can cause some gunking up and possibly clogging of the oiling passages, but it is good for it. Post racing I can grab my trasnmission, My laser thermometer has never read over 150* on the case. Not so on any other engine component, my headers have been around 600* before. The bellhousing does take up some of the engines radiant heat, but being made of hypereutectic aluminum it can also dump that heat much more quickly than the block. Only on endurance racing would I worry about ading an oil cooler to combat oil breakdown due to heat.

Basically the major reason, besides a high up chrysler engineer telling me to, I suggest M1HM is the fact it is almost exactly the same as the mopar fluid at half the cost, you can use it in your engine, and we all usually have 1/2quart left after an oil change, saved up 4 times a year it is almost enough to do the transmission with. Not to be a jerk but, Cost, Cost, Cost. If 10 things do the exact same thing for you, have all the same features and warranties, all work excellently and all are from quality manufacters, people will almost always go with the cheapest. I.E. If nissan had made a silvia turbo here for the same price as the neon I'm sure many many more people would have bought it over the neon.

Thats my 2 cents
Dave
Little Dragon Racing Transmissions

He said he will be joining the forum.
I think I am just going to stick with the Royal Purple Synchromax...

darthroush · Post by **darthroush** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:18 pm

I don't hate Mobil1, lol. I just prefer better quality oils that cost less (Pennzoil Platinum, for example). I have not priced M1HM simply because all of their other fluids are too pricey for me, considering the quality of it compared to others. That and never thought about using it as a replacement for transmission fluid, lol. ATF+4 can be found for about $3.50-$4.00 per quart. I had figured the M1 cost more than that was all for what is being said the almost same exact fluid. If you can find a better fluid for the same price or cheaper, why not? That's why I went with NAPA ATF+4 instead of Valvoline; because it is the same oil, just cheaper (plus I get a discount). I do appreciate you, and Dave, taking the time to answer my questions. My previous post was mainly out of curiosity. I have not had experience, or heard of anything like this before, so I wanted to check on the longevity of a decision like this. Dave does seem very knowledgeable on the subject. Heck, if I needed a transmission rebuild, he seems like someone I would do business with in confidence.

bone-yard-racing · Post by **bone-yard-racing** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:53 pm

http://www.eastwood.com/underhood-engin ... fl-oz.html

http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/products/xp2.html

http://www.shopmpt.com/mpt_products/zddp.html

NERD ALERT:
http://emerald2010.cjb.net/Insight/view ... tory=false

http://www.yet2.com/app/insight/techofweek/52652?sid=22

It would appear that any break in oil or break in additive would up the ZDDP level of the Mobil 1 to or well over the actual MTL

MyNeonSaysHi · Post by **MyNeonSaysHi** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:48 pm

darthroush wrote:I don't hate Mobil1, lol. I just prefer better quality oils that cost less (Pennzoil Platinum, for example). I have not priced M1HM simply because all of their other fluids are too pricey for me, considering the quality of it compared to others. That and never thought about using it as a replacement for transmission fluid, lol. ATF+4 can be found for about $3.50-$4.00 per quart. I had figured the M1 cost more than that was all for what is being said the almost same exact fluid. If you can find a better fluid for the same price or cheaper, why not? That's why I went with NAPA ATF+4 instead of Valvoline; because it is the same oil, just cheaper (plus I get a discount). I do appreciate you, and Dave, taking the time to answer my questions. My previous post was mainly out of curiosity. I have not had experience, or heard of anything like this before, so I wanted to check on the longevity of a decision like this. Dave does seem very knowledgeable on the subject. Heck, if I needed a transmission rebuild, he seems like someone I would do business with in confidence.

Lol check out the drivetrain section on srtforums about this subject.. One guy is giving him crap. I am tired of cross posting his PM's from the org. He is just going to have to join these forums.

Drakito · Post by **Drakito** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:51 am

So I joined!

I love a good discussion. Especially when everyone is intelligently posting thier arguments and views in an adult manner, it's refreshing.

Thanks to Myneonsayshi for cross linking my PM's, you have one more waiting for you, that you can or cannot link here depending on your mood.

Dave